Often described as the Godfather and one of the true forefathers of B2B marketing, it’s an honour to speak with you today. You’ve famously talked about speaking from “both sides of your mouth” - can you explain what that means for B2B marketers, and why having both perspectives really matters?
Well, I started my career in sales and spent quite a bit of time in sales and sales management. Then, according to my friends in sales, I went to the dark side and moved into marketing, primarily because of lead generation. That’s a long story.
But the fact of the matter is, I think any marketer in B2B needs to either have been in sales or really understand sales. The old phrase “walk a mile in my shoes” really applies here - it equips marketers to do a better job.
For B2B marketers who haven’t had the opportunity to work in sales - do you have any advice on how marketers can at least empathise with and understand that world?
That’s a good question. When I get a new client, one of the first things I ask is whether I can travel with their salespeople for a day or two - and not just one salesperson. I like to spend time with two or three.
What I find is that within the first half-day, they’re suspicious of me. But once they realise I understand sales, they open up. And when they do, the gems that come out of their mouths are incredible and hugely valuable for future marketing efforts.
You’ve got to get that trust right, and that empathy means they see you as a friend, not a foe.
And John, taking that thought further, your book The Fundamentals of B2B Sales and Marketing - there’s a clue in the title. You’ve developed a new sales coverage model. Is that a useful framework for marketers looking to build empathy and understanding with sales?
First, I should say not all situations are the same. Selling office furniture is very different from selling a machine tool that has to be designed. You need to define what you’re selling before you can design a coverage model that makes sense.
Do you use distributors or not? Does your coverage model rely on face-to-face interaction as a primary channel? Coverage models vary based on what you’re selling and who you’re selling to.
For example, in manufacturing, you’re often selling to engineers, not purchasing agents. These two factors drive very different coverage models.
That’s a great point. We talk a lot today about group marketing, where marketers need to engage multiple roles within large organisations, each with different interests in the product or service, and adapt messaging accordingly.
That’s what’s now called account-based marketing, and I completely agree with it. Even when I was in sales years ago, I did things people didn’t expect. I’d talk to purchasing, but I’d also go to the plant and speak with production scheduling. As a result, we often exceeded what the contract originally allowed.
If you’re selling to enterprise accounts, there can be five, ten, or more people involved in the decision. Marketers need to understand who they’re communicating with and that communication isn’t one-size-fits-all.
Exactly. And John, am I right in thinking that there was a version of ABM in 1980 - it just wasn’t called ABM back then.
Yes, back then it was called Strategic Account Management.
Today, B2B marketing is one of the fastest-growing industries in the developed world. What did you see all those years ago that made you register b2bmarketing.com? What told you this was coming?
It wasn’t so much what I saw, it was what I experienced. At the time, people were underestimating the size of the B2B market.
Think about a car. You buy one consumer product, but behind that car are 100 to 200 B2B suppliers. People focused on the consumer product and ignored the massive B2B ecosystem behind it.
I saw that because I came from sales. When I moved into marketing, many people had never worked in sales and underestimated both the size and potential of the market. Eventually, that changed and that’s why B2B has grown the way it has.
What has surprised you most about the rapid growth of B2B marketing?
One major surprise over the last five to ten years has been the explosion of technology. I’m an old face-to-face guy, and now there are nearly 14,000 software packages in sales and marketing.
The issue is that people adopt technology and forget the fundamentals. They hope technology will fix their problems, generate leads, build relationships, but without fundamentals, that’s a mistake.
Young marketers love tech. Older ones like me worry about fundamentals being lost.
That balance is fascinating. Technology has brought choice, but also choice paralysis. With AI now dominating the conversation, have the fundamentals of B2B marketing actually changed?
One thing that hasn’t changed is the emotional side of B2B buying. I’m writing a report on this now. We make emotional decisions first, trust, before we justify them with facts.
B2B marketing has historically ignored this emotional element, even though purchase decisions often involve significant personal and career risk.
Exactly. Buying a cheap personal item is one thing. Buying something expensive at work means spending someone else’s money, and that’s emotional.
Take a CRM system. Choosing or changing one can be career-ending if it goes wrong. Yet most marketing ignores that risk and emotional trust requirement.
And we’re back to buying groups again - different roles, different concerns, same product.
Correct. Purchasing, finance, users, sales managers - each has different needs and trust factors. Messaging must be relevant to each.
Do you remember the first time you heard the phrase “B2B marketing”?
It came from a creative director at an agency I worked with in New York. In 1997, she shortened “business to business” to B2B, and it stuck. When I registered b2bmarketing.com, that’s where it came from.
Last century!
It was. And it resonated.
Before you go, one final question on AI and data decay. Is there a risk that AI compounds bad data?
Absolutely. AI can help, even with updating CRMs, but data changes rapidly. In a room of 100 managers, around 70% will have had at least one change to their role or company in the past year. If you don’t stay on top of that, you’re communicating with people who aren’t there anymore.
Zombie communication?
Exactly. Great output requires great input.
John, thank you so much for joining us and for decades of contribution to B2B marketing as the Godfather.
Thank you - and remember, the Godfather always has an offer you can’t refuse.
Watch the full interview on the B2B Marketing United YouTube channel.
